REFLECTIONS on the HISTORY
Adam Blatner, M.D.
May 17, 2012
A lecture given at the Senior
University Georgetown's Summer Program, June 4, 2012)
My goal is just to
give you a brief overview, perhaps to dissolve some stereotypes
that all psychiatrists are psychoanalysts and use couches, etc.
In fact, the field has been as varied as the history of
computers or medicine or other major developments. There have
been swings of what’s in fashion and what’s out. So here goes.
2. I’m a psychiatrist—The Greek word-root iatros in the word
psychiatrist meaning physician—not a psychologist, ology means
3. Other Dimensions of Psychiatry: Psychiatrists did before
managed care organize hospitals, clinics, how health delivery
services would be organized. They did the kinds of talk therapy
that is most of psychotherapy, but they also did a lot of
4 In the 19th century and early 20th century, not so much, but
in the mid 20th century, psychotherapy was a big part of
psychiatry. Organic psychological organic pendulum swing:
One of the changes that has happened in the realm of
psychotherapy is that most psychiatrists have retreated to being
more caught up with brain-neurology and with treating the brain
with various medicines. In a way that’s been good: Talk therapy
hasn’t been found to be particularly effective with the major
mental illnesses and continuing research on these conditions is
important. However, there are a fair number of the old-time
psychiatrists who went into this field because the mind itself
is so very fascinating.
5 But during much of the mid-20th century,
psychiatrists were involved in understanding the psychology—the
workings— of the mind and its relations to the social network,
since this was considered a major factor in mental
illness. So being a psycholoGIST is a type of discipline,
but we all do psychology in a sense whenever we wonder why
people behave as they do. During this mid-20th century talk
therapy was considered a major element in psychiatry.
6 .Types of Psychotherapists. I made this slide in the
early 1990s: Alas, many psychiatrists have retreated to
the arena of physical treatments, evaluations for and
adjustments of medications and other types of treatment. I have
a friend who’s exploring magnetism’s effect on depression. But
this is not psychotherapy. It’s therapy, pharmaco therapy, other
treatment, but psychotherapy is now for the most part being done
by non-psychologists, often by counselors whose training was as
counselors. We won’t go into the politics of all this except to
say that many of the pioneers in the first and middle part of
the century were psychiatrists, M.D’s, and increasingly advances
in the realm of psychotherapy are being made by more experienced
psychologists and other non-psychiatrists.
7. Psychotherapy iis helping people.. Talk
8. In a larger sense, it partakes of the art of bringing people
forth into their highest potential..
(Network of People-Helping)
Even though I’m retired from
clinical practice, the art of bringing people forth continues to
interest me. It applies in a larger sense to parenting,
teaching, leadership in general, coaching, skilled management,
and other roles. I think these have something to teach the field
of psychotherapy, and psychotherapists in turn have something to
teach the larger society.
So to repeat, many psychiatrists, although not
professionally accredited within the academic field of
psychology per se, still were dealing with psychology insofar as
they really explored how the mind works. Indeed, in England,
psychiatry is often called medical psychology.
9. I heard a colleague say once, “Life is the greatest
show on Earth, and physicians have front row tickets.” I thought
to myself, “Yeah, and psychiatrists get to go into the locker
rooms and interview the players!” It is to me the most
fascinating, endlessly fascinating field—and the mysteries
10. As I say, the art helps us know how to bring people forth in
11. Psychotherapy, helping, an art..
12. Supplement on Google..
13. So to warm-up. I’ve been interested in comparative
psychotherapy, what all these approaches have in common, how
they differ. I assisted Zerka Moreno in presenting psychodrama
in 1985 at a big ol’ conference of psychotherapists of all sorts
back in the later 1980s. Here were some of the pioneers in the
field at the time. I’ll tell you more about them as I go on.
14. An approach I will use is to note how these
alternatives play off psychoanalysis. Dialectic is the name of a
process where if one person says A, someone else may say not A,
not only A, Mostly B, all sorts of alternative statements. It
keeps conversation moving along. Then A needs to expand what he
says to include his anti-thesis, or treat him as an enemy, or
someone else comes along and says here’s how both A and B are
partly right— a synthesis.
So this gives the
discussion a bit more than just a list of and then there was...
Because we continue to explore to clarify what really
helps and how.
15. It’s a big field, and there are stories within stories. This
is also on my website.
16. Part of the problem is that by the late 1980s there were
hundreds of therapies. You don’t hear about them so much because
evidence based methods have squeezed down what insurance
companies would pay for in a way analogous to the pressure for
marketing produce has reduced the variety, ripeness, and taste
of many vegetables and fruits.
17. Of course, the problem is that the mind is even more complex
and mutli-faceted than an elephant. All of the theories are a
little bit right, some more so for some people some of the time.
All of the theories and methods don’t cover every eventuality.
So the parable of the blind men and the elephant applies to not
only religion, and psychotherapy, but all forms of reflective
philosophy and psychology—and these categories overlap also with
sociology and anthropology and other fields.
18. I like these words of Carl Jung— he wrote them in a foreword
to another book—not important. What fits is the awareness of the
way knowledge, fields, studies evolve. We don’t have a hero who
makes a discovery that is sufficient and stands for all time. We
open a door and then explore beyond, building beyond. Sometimes
the pioneer makes mistakes that need to be rectified. The
process of dialectic, refinement, and extension continues.
19. So here’s how Sigmund Freud progressed. We’ll start with him
and with psychoanalysis. He may have been wrong in many ways,
but he opened some doors that were ready to open, mainly the
idea of let’s look at our thinking, our illusions, our
tendencies to self-deception.
20. Here are some of Freud’s points. They were compelling to a
number of folks back then. I don’t agree much with them, but I
do agree a bit—and that bit is very important.
21. What many may not know is that psychoanalysis did not
remain static or orthodox. Like the US Constitution, the
amendments may be as important as any element in the body of the
document—like the Bill of Rights or the rights to full
citizenship regardless of race.. That sort of thing. Another
analogy lies in the ups and downs of what people take to be
Christianity, and others argue about. So too, psychoanalysis has
undergone a good deal of reorientation — most psychoanalysts
don’t get much into Freud’s original theories.
22. Early on Carl Jung split off. Jung was going to be Freud’s
picked successor, but he ended up being too independent-minded
and Freud kept imagining that these were symptoms of rebellion
rather than creative thoughts beyond his own knowledge. I
imagine Freud feeling, “But it feels so right, it can’t be wrong
(in Debbie Boone’s You Light Up My Life song) ... Carl can’t
mean to suggest that I am (gulp) limited.” Yes, I think Freud
was a bit to attached to his own theory to let other
possibilities get developed within his organization.
23. Anyway, Freud did organize and that gave him a leg up and
then some over those colleagues who didn’t create organizations.
This is a big part of history. If Paul hadn’t organized it,
would Christianity survived?
24. Here are some of that group during the second decade of the
25. Alfred Adler was also a favorite of Freud’s and also an
independent figure. Freud thought of himself as a father, but
Jung and Adler thought of him as a pioneer with good ideas.
Father was stretching it a bit, except in Freud’s own
imagination. Anyway, I think Adler had some wonderful ideas that
flesh out depth psychology a lot! He was more social and more
aware of the power of social embeddedness. Mainly, he advocated
the best example of healthy thought—community feeling, we-ness—
Adler of course had a German word, Gemeinschaftegefuhl, a
feeling for the natural social group, a desire to be helpful
rather than competitive. I agree that this might be the key
shift that helps us back into sanity as a culture.
26 Melanie Klein, a pioneer of plsy gtherapy
...infant psychology A bit weird
had her own family and professionally arbitrary ideas.
27 Otto Rank was with Freud through his mid years, helped as
secretary, but also began to have ideas that were a bit too
independent and he too dropped out of the mainstream but
continued to talk about his approach for another decade or so.
Ya think maybe it wasn’t always their fault?
28. In the 30s another loyalist turned sour. Wilhelm Reich made
a major contribution in noting that people can armor their whole
body—that neurosis was a psychosomatic process. Like “up tight”
in different ways. He was very right. But then he veered off
thinking that libido, sexual energy, was vitality and needed to
be channeled orgone, and that’s a whole story of his being
persecuated in the USA for being a phony by the food and drug
29. The stor of Freud’s escape from Vienna after the Nazis took
over is good, sad. Moreno was already bitte, in pain fro a
cancer of the palate from habitually smoking his schimmelfennig
30. The interesting thing about how it and a bunch of central
european psychoanalysts came over to the Usa is that meanwhile
the doctors’ lobby was just getting their act together. There
had been an infusion of emigrees, psychiatry was feeling its
oats, other specialties had been getting organized, and they
passed a rule that only psychiatrist mds could be
psychoanalysis, as if to say, don’t try this at home. I won’t
get into it but I think it was foolish, and beginning in 1960s
increasing numbers of nonMDs were allowed to join and in the 70s
the psychoanalytic associations gradually became mostly
non-MDs. The reason this is important is that
psychoanalyiss became th hot big thing for treating major mental
illness, since other approaches seemed not to be that effective.
31. Meanwhile independent minded psychiatrists —one American ,
two from Europe— developed more popular forms of
psychoanalysis----they were called “neo-Freudians. I don’t
know how to describe it—not like the protestands versus the
catholics in the 16th century, but maybe like the methodists
versus the anglican-episcopalians.
Two points These folks infused
some fresh new ideas and kept the momentum going. For the next
twenty years psychoanalysis was the hottest intellectual
frontier—also in literary circles! The best and brightest
medical students were attracted!
Sullivan had more of an awareness of the
interactive process and moved towards making our understanding a
bit more embedded in social psychology.. Not the couch but
32 Karen Horney did a lot of things— broke out of the not really
anti-feminist but low awareness of how women really worked, and
popularized psychoanalysis in several books. I found her
relatively readable and somewhat sensible as a teen.
33. Erich Fromm was important because he made a bridge to
humanistic psychology, was willing to criticize psychoanalysis
and also appreciate it, and noted some cultural dynamics such as
the temptation to have, to possess, rather than to live.
I’ve found his work thought-provoking, because he invites us to
question some of the economic and political cliches that are
driving us to the edge of ecological unsustainability—though he
wrote before that danger appeared..
34. Otto Kernberg became more prominent in the 1960s writing
about how patients get caught up in expecting the worst from
others and whaddaya know, they subtly set it up so they get it.
Like sullivan, it emphasized a school called object relations—a
misnomer, because people aren’t objects. But the root was the
object of my affection .. And how we sort of imagine both sides
unconsciously. I’m gonna sit write down and write myself a
Indeed, during the 1970s a lot of attention was being given to
very difficult patients who left their analysts feeling ragged
and jerked around. They were called “borderline” because they
weren’t really crazy, but they weren’t mild neurotics either.
35, so here’s this chart again and the point is that the field
is dynamic and there are cross influences, and people trying to
resolve the tensions—remember the dialectical— and my point is
only that it wasn’t a one-dimensional orthodoxy but a lively and
36. And all that is just psychoanalysis. Meanwhile, the field
was spinning off other branches—that old dialectic process. And
like biological evolution, there was cross-fertilization from
37. Behaviorism—this was not a therapy to begin with, but a way
of thinking about psychology that had been popular in academia.
38. It sort of began with Ivan Pavlov in Russia around 1905 who
wrote about how ringing a bell could become a conditining
stimuli that would make a dog salivate even if it didn’t see the
There’s a whole sub-discussion about how behaviorism became
fashionable in child guidance in the 1920s and don’t spoil the
child messed us up and Dr. Benjamin Spock’s baby and child care
saved us. Yes, you could pick up your baby, mothers!
39. Operant conditioning. You can teach all sorts of things by
making the steps small enough and rewarding each effort. There
are some good principles here and it led to a real movement in
psychotherapy in the 1960s. You could teach pigeons to play
ping-pong. It was used in working with autistic and
40. It’s called behavior therapy, but really it comes from
another angle. It’s hard to be scared if your relaxed. So an MD
psychiatrist mixed relaxation and imagination training and
fought against anxiety attacks and phobias. Worked well for
41. Albert Bandura brought in the power of modeling. What I like
here is that within the protected socioeconomic cocoon of
academia and psychotherapy during a time when those professions
were still respected, desirable, and esteemed—and not yet
subjected to managed care— many approaches were devised—these
are only a select few. And one of my points is that what we
learned in this fertile period applies to bringing people forth,
parenting, teaching, managing, how we work with people well
beyond the clinical context. And that’s my special
42. So the point of dialectic is that people by the 1950s and
1960s were playing off of psychoanalysis—it was too individual
oriented, let’s include families and groups; it was too
depth-imagination, let’s get some principles of learning; it was
too this or that, let’s correct those lacks. That’s the good
thing about dialectic as a general process.
Existentialism is an umbrella term for a
cultural movement we all heard a lot about. Problem was that all
these folks hardly agreed or had an organization. What they
shared was a glimmer of awareness that people were creating
their own overall meaning systems, and often those did not fit
well with the interpretations of psychoanalysts of any school,
or behaviorists. What you needed to do was find what the
client’s own language was and work with that. Withhold
43. Viktor Frankl emerged in America as one who survived the
Nazi concentration camps, and his thrust was that attitude is
important. Lots more people are talking this way nowadays, but
back then it was kind of new. If bad stuff happened, somehow it
was okay to be not just grumpy but a bit nasty. Let’s look at
that. The more you are grumpy, the more bad stuff happens?
Coincidence? I think not. He had a lot of other things to
say and teach and again several sessions could be given over
just to his ideas. And that’s part of what attracted me.
This ferment was exciting philosophy and also applicable in how
we live our lives. What a combination!
44. Another dialectical tension playing off from
psychoanalysis was that the one-to-one session was by no means
the only way to do it. Accelerated by the pressures in the VA in
dealing with WW2 vets, more attention was given to the power of
the group, the power of people to help each other. The problem
is that the therapist was a bit more out of control, which was
hard for some.
45 It was probably no coincidence that AA got
started during these mid-20th century decades. People can help
46 Jacob Moreno was one of the pioneers. He not only wanted
people to help people, but he used a kind of role playing to
keep them involved with each other, calling it psychodrama. I’ve
written several books about these methods.
47. We need to mention hypnosis, which was perhaps the first
kind of psychotherapy 200 years ago, and was used occasionally.
It hasn’t caught on widely enough because I’m not sure why. It
may be hard to teach, to get the knack. I have no doubt that the
psychology here is very important, and some folks occasionally
get that knack, and try to teach it. That Freud used it and then
stopped using it probably inhibited research in this, but I
think it’ll come back.
48. Milton Erickson was a genius. A physician, psychiatrist,
paralyzed below the waist, fascinating man, often he hypnotized
in subtle ways without the client realizing it. Not a matter of
sleep, sleep, but other suggestions. I don’t know how to
summarize this except to note that there is much more to be
learned in this field.
49. Here is a slightly enlarged phot, and to the upper right is
a young man—not so young now—who has been organizing these
conferences and probing the nature of people-helping, Jeff
Zeig. Judd Marmor was at the hospital
where I took my internship and I picked up a little of his
spirit of modernizing psychoanalysis. Others to be described
50. Now next is another example of dialectic, of reaction to
what many felt to be foolish constraints of psychoanalysis and
51. From this perspective, the emergence of a third force in
American psychology, Humanistic Psychology, was in a sense a
dialectic antithesis to psychoanalysis and behaviorism. People
in this camp considered both the first and the second forces
were too reductionistic, psychoanalysis resting too much on
early life impressions— a psychology of the child. Behaviorism
was a psychology of the rat. What about higher aspirations? Are
they to be brushed aside? Not if these folks had anything
52. Abe Maslow was a brilliant and analytically trained
psychologist who saw beyond the limitations of analysis.
53. Rollo may is another important thinker—these guys as I say
speak to the problems of our time, of meaning making. Humanistic
psychology draws on existential psychology. One could easily
devote a few hours to each of these figures and their writings
54. Carl Rogers is yet another who also helped build a bridge to
the group, to the encounter group. My wife once took a summer
internship in Pittsburgh with the other Mr. Rogers with the
cardigan sweater on the TV show, you know, he really is as nice
as he seems on television. Anyway Carl is also an authentic nice
what you see is what you get. He also began to ask what is
really essential for therapists—being authentic was one element.
So laid some foundations for analysis of what works in therapy.
55. All this fed into a mixture of group work, encounter groups,
sensitivity training, some role playing principles, special
places for holding these workshops— and was popular for about
ten years between around 1965 through 1975, with a build-up and
cool-down of the fashion before and after that period. Elements
have continued to this day and I thought it was great.
How many people here ever heard of a place called Esalen
56. Will Schutz wrote a couple of books and integrated a variety
of methods with group work to make the encounter group process a
57. At any rate, there was a proliferation of new types of
therapy during this era. It was a heady time! Over here is
the encounter group which then fed into self-help groups
addiction groups, Gestalt Therapy, Transactional Analysis, etc.
58. You might wonder if anyone was wondering about what was the
underlying theme in all these. Was one right and all the others
wrong, or what? Hint: people have been more intensively
exploring what they all have in common, and something similar
has been happening in religion, too, but that’s another topic.
59. Okay, with the dialectic—remember ol’ Wilhelm Reich? He took
psychoanalysis deeply into the way the body reinforces
60. Well Alexander Lowen built on this,
didn’t get overly caught up in Reich’s other theories, and the
field called “Bioenergetic Analysis” was born.
61. A number of body workers have learned about it, and you
don’t have to be a therapist to consider ways to loosen up.
Again, what I like about this proliferation is that they opened
up new aspects of personal development that hadn’t been thought
about by most people before—well, some, maybe, with
62 Another major trend has been towards conjoint family therapy,
conjoint meaning we see them all together. This and variations
became increasingly popular in the mid-1960s.
63. Among these figures were a goodly number of people who
explored family therapy from different frames of reference. It
was a time when small group interaction in natural groups such
as families began to identify pathogenic patterns—stuff we now
call “enabling” when it happens in addictive families.
64. Nathan Ackerman was one pioneer, coming from psychoanalysis.
A lot of these guys had been mainstream analysts, but also
independent thinkers, and they drifted away from orthodoxy.
65. Murray Bowen was another and his angle was to notice how
some parents in some families pushed their kids to be just like
themselves. So he attended to the process of people becoming
their own person. I have a theory that some folks don’t really
get into recognizing what is more and less authentic about
themselves until midlife and that’s what is going on for some
folks who suffer from a midlife crisis. Or as one lady – a
client—said to me, “I’ve always been somebody’s something.”
66. Virginia Satir became popular among counseling students
because of her book “People-making,” and related approaches.
67 What I like is that she integrated the psychodrmamatic
technique of making an imagined sculpture of the people in your
network and applying that to families—i.e., family sculpture as
68. Jay Haley was younger and in Palo Alto when I came for my
psychiatry residency and I found his book, Strategies of
69. Here some of them are in 1985.
70. Another noted figure was Salvadore Minuchin.
71. Murray bowen in right upper side.
72. Taking the theme of playing off psychoanalysis as a
dilectical process, Eric Berne in the early 1960s was developing
his method of TA, Transactional Analysis, which combined
interpersonal work, a kind of what I think of as role theory, a
reframing of id, ego and superego as the inner child, adult, and
parent ego state, and exploring the dynamics of manipulations.
Others around that time also wrote about “games”—not in the
sense of nice play, but more unconscious patterns of
73. Another approach that became popular in the late 1960s
through the1990s was gestalt therapy, Gestalt being a German
word for getting the whole feeling, feeling closure, completion.
Fritz Perls was a scallywag and a brilliant but provocative
character who impressed others. He used some techniques from
psychodrama but didn’t generally acknowledge this.
74. Arnold Lazarus was one of the first to really articulate the
value of eclecticism. Now it’s the most common identity of
psychotherapists—less of a need to ally with only one system. I
agree with this—to do so would be like the doctors of yore who
bleed you for just about anything. As ol’ Maslow said, “Those
who only know how to use a hammer have a tendency to treat
everything as if it were a nail.”
75. Albert Ellis started off in the 1950s in New York where he
confronted clients with their unrealistic expectations. He was
pretty abrasive, but it worked in that culture.
76. Later, no direct relation, another ex-analyst named
Aaron Beck, realized that half of what was wrong with a lot of
clients was the continuation of a number of bad thinking habits,
and as long as these were operating, real change couldn’t
happen. And insight wasn’t enough. Some actual practice was
needed. What I’ve liked about Dr. Beck’s approach is that it was
more educational. I would like all kids in the 10th grade to
take a class—not as therapy, but just practice in thinking more
77. Willam Glasser wrote several books on reality therapy,
confronting young men and especially teenagers with
consequences, etc. There was a positive and helpful mood that
was present, the opposite of the cliche of the analyst behind a
couch. All these folks used more direct dialogue approaches, no
78. Several psychotherapists found that imagining scenes
vividly could move things along. This has become a staple of pop
psychology and visualizing for spiritual prosperity, but back
then it was radical.
79. Others that got more publicity than they deserve flourished
for a few years , got some celebrities talking aboout how great
it was, and then it passed. Primal therapy was thatl]]
80. During the 70s other therapies became more organized. For
decades, centuries, asylum managers often had small groups that
put on plays or made music or art, and it seemed to help. When
mixed with Moreno’s principle of improvisation, these modalities
in the 1960s began to help people find their own creative
81. Meanwhile all sorts of specialized groups were forming. We
have many groups in Sun City and clubs in Georgetown—getting
together and sharing war-stories is common. Now folks find
common cause with others over the internet.
82. I know I’m racing but the point is to give a bit of an
overview. A related point is to get the sense that people have
been probing so many different angles of what will be helpful,
and a corollary is that different strokes for different
folks—there is no one thing that works for everyone.
Transpersonal Psychology grew out of
humanistic psychology and will become stronger in the years to
come: Although it was still not in intellectual fashion, some
brave souls dared to support spirituality, meditation,
mysticism—trans is beyond doing it just for your ego...
And this can be integrated with a more
liberal religious tradition, but invites the spirituality to be
part of the healing and thriving.
83. Meanwhile psychoanalysis has also continued to
evolve and grow .
84. Positive psychology has been a trend starting in the
mid-1990s and growing since then. It’s not enough to discover
and work out the knots in your soul, to extract the weeds in
your soul’s garden. It’s important also to plant healthy plants,
to learn and practice skills of gratitude and other kinds of
more positive thinking. I like this in general—I’m sure it can
be overdone; Barbara Erenreich wrote an essay that gave me
pause, but it really said that if the principle is applied in an
non-discerning way, it’s just another slogan.
85. There’s new stuff on the horizon, books in our library, the
field is alive, and a long, long way from the weird psychiatrist
and the weirder client on the couch cartoon.
86 Implications of the Psychotherapies
87. Preventive psychotherapy—teach this stuff in the schools!
88. What will it take to support Cathy so that she can
89. My latest thinking is action exploration. A category
that includes many approcaches.
90. My friend Sally Bailey in Manhattan Kansas sort of saw this.
91. Here’s what I’ve been trying to put together.
8. Psychotherapy is the art of helping people through talk—my
bias is towards using a kind of improvised role playing called
psychodrama, or as I call it, “action exploration.” Others use
art or dance or music or poetry—to think and feel more freely,
and with less pain. I respect the place of medicine, but I also
am aware that lots of folks suffer more because their inner
programs or maps or how they put the world together is not as
effective as it might be. So that’s where the job of
people-helping comes in. This twist puts me out of the
mainstream of psychoanalysis a little, but not yet into the
biological. I’m sort of in-between, which has helped me to
reflect on many different factors involved in people-helping.
9. For a supplement to this talk, Google Blatner Psychotherapy
History and you’ll get much of this. This is a vast field and
could fill a whole semester for those who really wanted to dig
into this. What I’m presenting here is just an overview, in the
service of cultural literacy. You’re not expected to remember a
thing other than to realize that in the fields of psychology,
psychiatry and psychotherapy, lots has been happening, evolving,
and in a larger sense, this reflects shifts in the world-view
that’s happening in our life-time, such as from a more
reductionistic and mechanistic view to a more holistic
10. The field has evolved a lot in the last century. The
mid-part was dominated by Freud, the post-Freudians,
psychoanalysis, the couch, weird theories of what the mind is
about, and so forth. And although that peculiar approach gained
dominance for a while in the field, it never actually involved
more than a minority of the profession. Maybe 20% max were
accredited as psychoanalysts around 1958, which was close to the
apex of this trend, and another 50% sympathetic, but not
formally trained, but lots has happened since, and now it’s less
than 5% accredited and most psychiatrists are hardly sympathetic
with Freud, although a few of his ideas have held up to further
research. We are largely consumed by irrationality, though not
in the ways he described. Back to that later.
I’ll be talking about psychoanalysis as a core from which others
diverged or contrasted themselves. I myself am part of a stream
that contrasts itself with the psychoanalytic technique but I
appreciate many of the elements of depth psychology. It’s
invigorating to be in the middle, but invigorating but also a
bit slippery and difficult—people keep wanting to classify you
in a way that’s are you with us or against us.
Okay, let’s carry on.
- - - -
. Email to email@example.com
Return to top